Paving the Way for Infrastructure

Dave Walsh (00:14):

Welcome to Standards impact, STM International's official podcast. I'm Dave Walsh, editor in Chief of Standardization News, and today I'll be talking with Darryl Sanders of Contact Engineering Solutions and Phil Blankenship of Blankenship Asphalt Tech and training two experts on the topic of infrastructure. But before we get to our experts, let's go to sns content editor JP Irvin for our standard spotlight segment.

JP Ervin (00:39):

Modern industry is being revolutionized by additive manufacturing for what is commonly known as 3D Printing. AM creates three dimensional objects from digital models by adding materials together layer by layer, making use of polymers, metals, and even materials like sand. But did you know that people believe am could someday be used to print cells, ligaments, and even organs? Tissue engineered medical products or temps are an exciting area of research where medical products are used to repair, modify, or regenerate cells, tissues and organs. These devices are different from conventional organ transplants, but they have high potential to aid patients.

(01:20):

We are years away from simply being able to 3D print a new heart. But advances in am mean that these ideas are no longer just science fiction. AM is already used in the production of medical grade titanium, a material known for its strength and biocompatibility now people are turning their eyes in a new direction. One exciting avenue is the regeneration of muscle tissue. ASTM members are working on a standard for bioprinting when used to address biometric muscle loss due to blast injuries, as well as torn rotator cuffs or ruptured muscles. Another area already coming to view is the use of am in the production of replacement heart valves to treat congenital defects and degenerative disease. Ultimately, am has the potential to transform how we treat illness, injury, and other medical conditions.

Dave Walsh (02:13):

Darryl and Phil, thanks for being with us today. Alright, well, it's no secret we all have seen presidential election cycles. We're in the middle of one now. And infrastructure in America and and globally continues to be a big issue. It is not good. The, the degree to which it is not good can be debated, but in a recent infrastructure report card from ASCE the US at least received a d with 43% of roads in poor condition, and Europe is not much better. So what are some of the main reasons for this? And, and essentially how can we improve?

Phil Blankenship (02:47):

We had a great generation that, that built our interstate system and our, and our highways, you know, in the in the fifties, sixties and seventies. And, you know, now been responsible for maintaining those. And I think we did a great job building them. I, I used to work at the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet, and, you know, with the, with the lack of funding that we have today with the downsizing of government, with even with all the innovations that's come out somehow we just haven't got the dots connected and, and been able to maintain what we've been given. And once you get behind it really comes at you like a wave.

Darrell Sanders (03:29):

I would certainly agree with, with everything that Phil said. I would also say, I mean, I think, you know, funding is a, is a major challenge. And you know, there have been there have been some, you know, changes to some acts that have been passed by the federal government in order to, to try to help address this. But primary mechanisms of funding really have not changed. And gas tax is kind of the primary funding mechanism for, for infrastructure in the us. Well, the last time the the the gas tax, the federal gas tax was changed was 1993. It's unbelievable how, you know, as much, you know, think about all the inflation and everything that that has occurred since then.

Phil Blankenship (04:18):

You know adding to that, I don't think folks realize that when you get on a highway, one mile of highway that per the stats of a SCE, American Society of Civil Engineers who did the report card, they claim that one mile of highway takes $24,000 annually to maintain. So when you wrap your head around that and you look at the tax we're paying, and I really appreciate you mentioning that. We're, we're probably paying as a, as a user, maybe four to $500 a year that goes towards their roadways. And just think about a mile takes $24,000 a year to maintain. You couple all that with the, I think, an inability to adopt matu new materials quickly, and we find ourselves in the hole that we're in <affirmative>.

Dave Walsh (05:12):

So you've, you've both keyed on funding as a major issue and, and I've heard that before as well. So, to get specific then, if, you know, there are a lot of new technologies out there, a lot of new techniques and processes, you're both probably intimately familiar with them. So if you had a magic wand and could get all the funding you wanted, where would we start in terms of physically improving things where, what would be, you know, maybe the first thing you would do, Phil?

Phil Blankenship (05:36):

Well, one, one of the first places I would start is implementing best practices. There's a, there's a lot of things that we know that we need to do better. You know, in my world of, of asphalt payments it's, it's getting the right pavement thickness, we all know. And again, for example, that density in a pavement, compaction, a pavement is key. 1% more density can add a year life to it. But yet we've been at this number that we've been at, we call it 92 to 93% of maximum for as long as I've been in the industry. And if we know we can do better, why don't we redesign our mixtures so we can get more compaction? Again, that's one item, but it's, it's just adopting best practices before we implement anything else.

Dave Walsh (06:22):

Yeah. And Darryl, I know that in your area a one and a five coatings are a big, are a big technology advancement that has occurred recently. How do we get infrastructure to last longer? I assume that's a key. You know, we get the funding, we build a new road, we don't want it to fall a, a bridge or a road. We don't want it to fall apart in five years. We want it to last 75, a hundred. What kind of solutions do you see on the horizon?

Darrell Sanders (06:49):

Yeah, I think I think one of the keys to to, to extending the service life and, and controlling the costs, the overall lifecycle cost of, of of our infrastructure is really in the maintenance piece. I, I think it, it's a tremendous challenge for a lot of these agencies to you know, to really identify all of the all of the items that are within the, the infrastructure that, that, that kind of falls underneath their, you know, their jurisdiction. But, you know, being on top of the maintenance piece you mentioned coatings. I mean, there are, there are a number of things that, that can that could be done. Bridges culverts pipelines, storm sewers pavements, all of these things, you know, if, if they can identify and have a, a regular mechanism for inspecting and then addressing the rehabilitation of, of those structures before you get to replacement, you can, you can significantly extend the, the life of elements of our infrastructure for pennies on the dollars compared to completely ripping them out and the disruption that goes with closing roads and traffic and all of the additional costs that are, that are associated with that.

(08:11):

 So I really think the maintenance piece, if you, you said if you got all the money in the world and, and you know, what would be the first thing you would do is, is I would really focus on getting that inventory list of, of all of the infrastructure that kind of falls within those jurisdictions, and really putting a more robust plan in place regarding the inspection and the maintenance program for those. And then obviously new technologies as, as we continue to build new roads and, and new infrastructure, that's where you can implement some of those new technologies with the new infrastructures being put in. But I, I really think to me, the, the maintenance piece is, is probably the one that I would put the most emphasis on.

Dave Walsh (08:56):

Well, and just to follow up quickly, I mean, that, that's pretty interesting. Has that not existed to this point? An adequate maintenance and, and inspection program?

Darrell Sanders (09:05):

It exists, but I, you know, you use the word adequate, and I think that's the key word. I, I I think it's inadequate in a, in a lot of cases there are, you know, there are agencies who, who literally don't even, you know, they struggle to, to know all of the points of infrastructure within their jurisdiction. I mean, if you ask them, you know, how many, how many culverts do you have? How many, how many buried drainage points along the along the system, sometimes they, they can't give you a, a definitive number because if they fall underneath a certain size or, you know, within certain parameters, they're not inspected on a regular basis, and they don't even have a full listing of of all of those items. So there are maintenance programs that exist for sure. And this isn't a, you know, this isn't being critical. They're, they're also not funded in a way, or staffed in a way that that would allow them to to fully maintain these these items. But you know, I, I think that's where I would suggest that, that we put more of the emphasis is, is more on that, that maintenance piece, inspection and maintenance.

Phil Blankenship (10:10):

Darryl, I'd like to add to that, you know, today we love to build a new road and how nice that is. And it's really important that we have you know, funding to be able to fix what we call realignment. When you have a, an area where there's been a lot of fatalities or wrecks and you want to fix that and correct it, and that, and that may be something that's where, where it justifies the, the new, the new pavement dollars spent. But overall one thing that A SCE encouraged when they released the report card was to focus on preserving what we have instead of going and building new pavements. And that's exactly what, what Darrell is saying. We've got to focus and, and get our, get our dollars put on, on preserving. I can take you up and down the road close to where I'm at here on I 75.

(10:58):

And whether you go up to Kentucky, where I'm at here on down towards Tennessee, everybody's gonna tell you drainage is an issue on, on that roadway. There's some areas where the water will just sit in underneath the roadway and, and, you know, how do we get it out? And we put, we've tried different things over the years, but we're stuck with it. And we, we have better techniques. We, we have better ways that we can do it. We, we've gotta clear the drains out even after you clear the drains out. There may be other things that we need to do in there, but instead of a complete tear out again, you know, let's, let's wrap our head around how we can preserve what we've got and, and bring it up to par versus going and building new roads.

Dave Walsh (11:38):

Yeah. So that's interesting because I've heard a lot of people say that it, it, it's an issue with the quality of the roads in, in specifically in the us you know, you hear about the Audubon where the road bed is deeper, the materials used are better. But it sounds like you're kind of saying maybe that's a factor, but also inspection maintenance might be just as much or more of a factor.

Phil Blankenship (12:01):

Yeah. You know, and our old roadways are getting, getting older. You know, if, if you travel the world and take a look around, and I've just been to a few countries, but we have an incredible highway system that I can go from here to California, I can go up to Canada, I can run down to Florida, the network of roadways, the quality of what we have overall is, is outstanding and, and we lead the world in what we have. But when you take a deeper look at it, you go from one state to another, and one state may have some smooth areas. Another one, you hit all these bumps and, and, and you're just going from one state to another. So that just tells me practices in one area versus another. Again, getting back to best practices, we need to learn from each other and adopt faster than what we're doing today, because the road doesn't care how slow we operate, it's gonna continue to wear out.

Dave Walsh (12:51):

So I guess maybe we should since this is a STM get to the topic of standards, and you've identified a lot of the issues that are at play here and, and how they're affecting our roads and, and what might need to be done to fix them, but how are standards and specifically the ones you're working on in your committees, how are they helping to meet these challenges and solve the problems that are facing our global infrastructure?

Darrell Sanders (13:12):

Well, I, I know in the in the drainage world, there are a couple of buzzwords that I, I've had to grow more comfortable with sustainability and resiliency. I think that whole effort around trying to utilize and kind of identify best practices as Phil had mentioned earlier, and, you know, how can we look at, at a at a roadway or a drainage way or an an area and what can we do to to build that road or, you know, whatever the, the, the case may be to to be more resilient and to be more sustainable such that it is actually easier to maintain, it's easier to make enhancements to you know, you could add capacity you know, more easily or, you know, resiliency as, as as we do see more and more, you know, kind of changing weather patterns and the impact that that can have on our infrastructure.

(14:13):

 How can we design to have the infrastructure be more resilient? Things that we never used to talk about in terms of drainage structures, but thoughts around, you know, wildfires and how does that impact you know, drainage structures on, on highways. What, what are the things we can look at and do differently to, to try to address some of these other issues to, to make our infrastructure more capable of handling some of these extreme events? Those are now things that are being addressed with standards. And there's a lot of, a lot of people from across a number of, of different backgrounds. There's people from industry, there's people from academia, there's, you know, people who are into materials or, you know, whatever, and, and they're all coming together to help you know, create some of these standards to to highlight and, and try to promote some of these best practices.

Dave Walsh (15:18):

Well, and, and Phil, I'm sure you could cite some standards work that you know of that's going on, and I think an obvious area might be materials and making better roads, but I think you touched on inspection and maintenance as well. I wonder if those are the subject of new standards work as well?

Phil Blankenship (15:33):

Yeah. just in general, you know, if you, if you look at what's being done on the inspection side it gets back to we don't really have the, the standards that's focused on maintenance. As much as that gets be more of a practice that would be done at agencies, what our standards do focus on are the specific measures that get into how you get pavement density proper ways of installing those pavements. And specifically as we get into the, the committee, one of the areas I serve on is a s TMD oh four. And in, in that group, I know we've talked about alternate binders trying to wrap our head around alternate materials. Bio oils are, are a new and up and coming material that we don't have a definition around for a, with A STM right now. There's a, there's a similar type of product called vacuum tower extenders where, where it's a, it's a lighter oil to help you soften the, the asphalt materials.

(16:38):

So there's items coming up like that. Another, another product that's brand new that's hitting the, that's hitting the world of paving is ev a and fiber, but being able to use heat resistant fibers, just like you need rebar and concrete, it's very helpful to have some type of reinforcing material that makes a materials last longer. Now, all of those are new materials on the testing on the design side, which will eventually get to the construction side too. There's a term that we're call, we call balance mix design or BMD. It's, it's just end result testing is all it is. So we wrap into place test for pavement, deformation or rutting. So we don't have the big channels that come in our highway. We have tests that we can run that will help to reduce cracking in, in asphalt pavements. Again, I'm just talking on the asphalt portion 'cause that's where I serve.

(17:33):

I know concrete has had also a lot of advances but, but in the asphalt world, you know, can we, can we have less ru and less cracking and not swing the pendulum one way or another? And so these tests are specifically an A-S-T-M-D oh 4.26, and there's several that's, that's hit. And, and it's a matter of fact, it's, it's very accelerated right now, and it's hard to hang on to that committee because there's there's a couple of different rut tests. There's test on how to make the samples, because if you don't get the error out of the test, it doesn't even matter that you run it. There's, there's multiple tests on cracking that have come out. So all of those tests are now landing and, and really the accelerator hit somewhere around 2018. One started coming after another. And so this big push that we're making in the us, which other countries are watching what we're doing called balanced mix design, or BMD, a lot of those standards are landing right in A STM.

Dave Walsh (18:36):

So you named several technologies just then, and they sounded pretty groundbreaking, pretty cutting edge. So I wanted to throw it out to both of you. And, and Phil, you could take this to start, is this a, you know, the overall problem of infrastructure in, in the US and the world and worldwide? Is it a matter of implementing some of these technologies? Is it a problem that can be solved? I won't say easily, but is there, is there a clear solution or is this something where we're kind of so far behind the eight ball that it would take decades no matter what the next step was?

Phil Blankenship (19:06):

I get to work with a lot of new materials and, and I, and I get to see those materials implemented on a highway, and I have to admit, it takes, it takes some guts to go out there and take a new material, something that's, that's more than just a, an additive, something that's really gonna fundamentally change it, and you put in place. So first thing, it takes courage, whether you're an agency or, or whether you're a consulting engineer or a contractor, it takes courage to go out there and try these new materials. I don't mean do it without understanding, I mean with, you know, study up, look at what you're doing try the new technology and get it put down. We can't implement new products, new science by writing papers and leaving them on the shelf. You gotta pull it off the shelf and get it onto the roadway.

(19:51):

The, the other part of that is really good follow up of these materials. One of the, one of the hard parts is to evaluate. We tend to watch things for a few years, and then we, and then we back it off. Our current models that we use for designing pavements aren't set up for new materials. It doesn't mean that we can't use 'em, it just means that we don't have a button in there. You know, for instance, if I'm using air mid fiber, there's no button that I can click that's gonna allow me just to, to insert fiber. However we do have more fundamental tests that, that we can understand the modulus or understand these different materials properties and begin to put them in. But there's some tests that we're gonna run that may not capture what, what these materials fundamentally do on a higher level, because some of these are testing the limits. So I would say, you know, the, the two biggest things holding them back is, is one, have the courage to try these products and, and change the status quo on that. And the second one is get out there and follow up, and let's figure out how, how we can design and get these into our mainline system.

Dave Walsh (20:55):

So Darryl, how would you answer that question? Is it is it a lost cause or are we, are we close to being able to solve infrastructure problems?

Darrell Sanders (21:02):

It's certainly not a lost cause, but it, it, you know, it, it's like it's like anything else. I mean, you know, you you, you kind of get results from what you focus on, right? And so I think fundamentally, you know, there needs to be more of an emphasis on infrastructure. And again, that starts at the beginning. What if we got what's, what what state is it in? And then what can we do to, you know, what do we need to you know, what do we need to, to repair so that we can extend the service life or what needs to be replaced? But it, it's really just a matter of, of funding and focus. And I think you know, I, it's certainly not a lost cause. It's something that we can control if the, the amount of, of funding that, that we that we spend on infrastructure tripled for the next, you know, 20 years.

(21:57):

I mean, in 20 years we would be, you know, in a much, much better position than we are today. Now, it's not something, you know, all these infrastructure projects, I mean, we all understand, they, they take a lot of time and a lot of energy to make fundamental, you know, major changes to the existing infrastructure. But, you know, the sooner you start, the sooner you can catch up. And so I think it's just a matter of, of of focus and attention and it, it does start, it starts at the federal level and, you know, and, and extends down to the state and municipal level and, and townships and, and everything on down the line. But I think no, it, it's certainly not a, a lost cause. I mean, we can definitely control our fate in terms of, you know what we're willing to put up with in terms of infrastructure. But if we don't fundamentally change things, then, you know, we're gonna continue to have the same issues that we're kind of experienced today.

Phil Blankenship (22:54):

I think about, you know, we mentioned that we were at a, we are at a d I don't think our roads were ever at an a <laugh>. You know, and it's not like we built them all in one year and they were all brand new, right? These roads were, were, were built stage construction over, over many years. And by the time, let's say that I 64, I 75, I 70 I 75, any of those were built I 80, you know, you pick your roadway when that was built, that's an a, right? But at the time that's built, your oldest turnpike in the United States, which is a Pennsylvania turnpike, is probably now degraded down to a, to another level. So you're constantly working on and working on these to bring 'em back up. The, the thing is, we get further behind the eight ball as the saying goes.

(23:42):

And, and that's why you know, part of the sustainability push is, is it's very important to, to reduce the temperature. It's very important to use materials, low carbon, but the most important thing that we can do is reduce the construction cycle. If I can get my pavements, my materials, bridges and all of these things to last years longer, that's the quickest way or the biggest impact to reduce your carbon footprint. So, you know, what we can't do is, is bring materials in at the sacrifice of pavement longevity. We've gotta get the materials and do it right the first time so we can get these to last longer to get that D up to a C and the C up to a B. And, and that's not gonna happen overnight that, that's gonna take a strategic plan. And because the, the way that we have our 50 United States, sometimes it seems like 50 countries, but, but 50 United States every state is gonna do it just a little differently. And again, states need to lean on each other to, to adopt those best practices quickly.

Dave Walsh (24:48):

One question we've been asking of all of our guests essentially is, is why should the average person care about the topic in question? In this case, everyone cares about potholes, everyone cares when a bridge is closed and they can't get where they're going. But I think you've hit on a big point, which is that when it comes time to increase funding or you know, pay for more expensive materials, you know, people back off a little. So what would you say to those people who say, well, it's really not that big of a deal. Why should people care more about infrastructure?

Phil Blankenship (25:21):

You know, it, it, it depends on where you live. And again, I'm gonna use something more locally as an example. If I'm in the city of Lexington Lexington's roads are, are really overall in very good condition. And if you don't travel outside that community, you may get a false sense of security as you travel somewhere else. You, you get into a an area where I'm at here and just the south of Lexington and you get back on a rural roadway and the edge of the roadway's falling off. 'cause You don't have a a good support structure next to the water that's flowing on it. All it takes is just a little look around and, and realize that we do have problems. And even if it looks like it's beautiful even if we had everything lasting longer, there's always improvements we can make.

(26:07):

 We've got things such as, as skid that we can improve to make it so that, that when a person hits their brakes on the roadway to, to reduce the accidental sliding of the car. So can we improve friction on a roadway? Yes. Is it easy to do? Absolutely not. But then when that vehicle skids off and does begin to move, what safety features can we put on the roadway to make it better? Little, little facts. When you, when we had interstates and, and these large high speed highways years ago we let the rain lanes run right next to each other. You look at it today in the highway capacity, I believe you have to have at least 150 feet between the lanes, or you have to have some barrier. Well, why are those in place? That's to help our safety.

(26:52):

So not only is it all about just making the roadway last longer, best practices, but then public safety comes into all of that. There's so many features that we can improve on safety. Another just one other one I've heard lately, and it really gets off topic just a bit, but is pedestrian lanes. A lot of our areas don't have good pedestrian lanes to allow the, the folks to be able to walk, and they're forced to walk on the edge of the roadway, which creates a dangerous situation. So those are just some of my thoughts on this.

Darrell Sanders (27:23):

You know, a lot of other modern conveniences, you kind of take 'em for granted till they don't work, right? The furnace in your house, it's easy to, to kind of ignore it and, you know, not change the filter and maybe not have it inspected and, and do whatever. And, and you get by and, and my house is still is still kept warm until it's not. And, and then, you know, it can be a very major disruption. It can have implications for safety and, and health and, and infrastructure is all those things and more, I mean you know, without without the ability to quickly and safely transport people and goods across the country, our quality of life would be impacted significantly. And think about all the costs that are associated if a highway is down. I mean, we had disruptions.

(28:11):

I mean, sometimes, you know, we, you know, Atlanta had had a, a major bridge that had a fire underneath it and, and caused it to be to be shut down for several months. Well, think about all of the, you know, the goods and services that had to be rerouted as a result of that. Think about all the traffic that, that, that occurred on those other roadways because we had to detour traffic. Just a one example, multiplied by a thousand across America. When you have these disruptions, when we have to, you know, take a bridge outta service to to replace it or maintain it or widen it or, or whatever it is the disruptions are, are significant. And so I think everyone has experienced the negative impacts of, you know, a a failure of infrastructure, right? And, and sometimes it's not a failure.

(29:04):

Sometimes it is maintenance or, you know, something that's scheduled. But I would say that, you know, the average person does not think about infrastructure a lot because because they don't have problems with it. But it, but when they do, it can be a really major disruption. And so it is the lifeblood of a lot of our kind of modern society. Again, the ability to, to transport goods and, and people, you know, quickly and, and efficiently is good for everyone. And so, you know, I think I think even the, the average person can understand the importance of continuing to keep up with doing those, those those improvements to our existing infrastructure as well as building new infrastructure when, when needed.

Dave Walsh (29:55):

So we're getting to the end of our time here, but certainly to, to put a a bow on this, I kind of wanted to go back to A STM and the standards process that you've both been involved in for so long. How important is that consensus process in developing the kinds of standards that are going to be needed to start addressing these infrastructure challenges? What role will a s TM play and what has been your experience with that process?

Darrell Sanders (30:21):

Well, standards are kind of the baseline. I mean, really nothing gets built, nothing gets built in the US without, without some sort of standard being applied, you know, whether it's an A SDM standard or some other. But certainly A SDM plays a major role in, in influencing how we, how we implement projects. Maybe it's performance based specifications. But standards in our industry are everything. I mean, every set of plans, every you know, every design is, is based on or refers to some sort of a standard that, you know has been reviewed and meets the meets the needs of, of the of the engineering community. So to me, you know, organization being a, a, a part of of A STM is, is vitally important. That's why we put a lot of emphasis into it.

Phil Blankenship (31:15):

You know, right now we're, we're actually facing that in, in, again, the, the committee that I, that I work closely with and, and the others surrounding it in, in the D four area and, and in DL 4.26, again, very specifically, these standards that are, that are coming online for improved materials to, to help roads crack less and, and not channel or rut they have an international impact. And in addition to what, what, what Darrell said, you know, concerning you can't build anything without a standard standards, again, allow us to transfer that knowledge from one state to another and, and come up with the same thing. No different than if you go to McDonald's, gotta love the fries, right? And you, you, you go to McDonald's in Kentucky or you go to McDonald's in California, the fry's the same. Well, we want that quality, even though we have different materials we have different materials, aggregates or rock that we have in one place versus the, another different crude sources for the asphalt, different types of cement for the, for the concrete, different type of coatings, all the base materials that go into it.

(32:24):

While they may be different from location to location, the standard helps us to transfer that knowledge for the end result from state to state, internationally. It also has that impact. There's folks that's working on adopting these standards and, or I shouldn't say adopting, adapting them to match with, with, with other countries. They may not have a molding or a compacting device like we have in the us. Maybe they have something that's a little different. And, and in doing so can they take that current standard and use that molding device to be able to run that end result test using their current machinery that they have. So A STM can have a, have a, have a major impact again, not just in the US from state to state, but, but globally in helping us to standardize what we're doing. Well,

Dave Walsh (33:13):

That sounds like a good last word to me because we're up against the end of our time. But Phil and Darryl, I wanna thank you very much for being here with us today. I think we barely scratched the surface. We could probably do an another couple of podcasts on this, but for now, I think this was a good discussion. So I thank you both.

Darrell Sanders (33:30):

Appreciate the time and thank you for thank you for having me on.

Phil Blankenship (33:35):

Same here. And I appreciate the A STM com commitment to all they do. And thank you and your team for hosting us.

Dave Walsh (33:49):

If you wanna learn more about any of the standards discussed in this episode, visit astm.org for all the latest. And if you enjoyed the show, remember to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'm Dave Walsh, and this has been Standards Impact presented by A STM International.